Hannah Tackett, Helping Women Avoid Burnout – Your Spectacular Life

00:00
I’m Jody Weitz, results and success coach. And these podcasts teach you how to make significant changes, to live your dreams, make a positive impact on the world, and drop your regrets. It’s time for you to get spectacular. Welcome back to your spectacular life. I’m Jody Weitz, your professional and life coach, making sure both those areas and everything else is spectacular in your life. I’m here with Hannah Tackett. Hi, Hannah. 

00:45
Hello. Nice to be here. 

00:47
Great. Thank you for being here. I’m looking forward to chatting. Let me tell you something about Hannah. Hannah helps busy women in tech and burnout. She has a diverse background as both a holistic health practitioner and a software designer, and cares deeply about the experience women have on their journey towards success. That’s great. I love that. I love somebody who’s out there looking out for women who are over efforting and overworking. Now, Hannah, have you always been interested in working with tech or what made you go from holistic into coaching? Or did one come before another? 

01:44
Right. So, no, I was not always interested in tech. So, yeah, I kind of found my way there. And essentially I spent twelve years as an elastic healthcare practitioner helping people with stress and pain. But I was young and I didn’t know how to run a business and I was broke and all of my clients were laid off. And so I was like, wow, I should probably change this up a little bit. And I went back to school, stumbled into coding. I had no idea I could code. Never in a million years thought I would be able to code. But I had a knack for it. And so I went that direction and eventually became a product designer or a user experience designer, depending on, you know, how you want to label things. 

02:29
And then I spent the next 16 years working in tech, designing software. And it has been a, you know, a fun journey. And on that path, I encountered, well, I had my first, not my first, but my first reality. Scary burnout. And then I’ve encountered so many women who have burnt out or are struggling with burning out or are slogging through years and years of working without passion. And so that other part of me, the part that loves to help people and lives to serve in that way, really felt called to lean in and start supporting women on their journey through corporate America and specifically within the world of tech. Because you can regain your passion, you can recover from burnout, you can prevent and end burning out without necessarily burning your career down. 

03:24
You don’t have to take it to your sabbatical, quit your job, walk away from half a million dollars of rsus to recover and feel whole. You can if you want to, but, like, you don’t have to get to that point, you know? 

03:37
Right. 

03:37
So that’s when I started doing this work, doing this kind of work with women. 

03:43
That’s great. Yeah. And I know so many women. I both worked in tech, and I’m also working 30 years in acupuncture. So, you know, side gigs, tech, podcasting, coaching. I’ve been coaching for, you know, quite some time, about 20 years in health and life, then business coaching. So somewhat of the same journey. You know, I’ve seen a lot and still do see a lot of women in burnout. Now, how would you describe what burnout is? 

04:21
So it’s really. I mean, it’s. It’s a colloquialism. It’s not a. Like a diagnosis or something. 

04:28
Right. 

04:29
But typically, when someone is burnt out, there’s. There’s ways that they feel, and, it’s usually extreme fatigue, resentment. Take, you know, the weekend. You go through the weekend, Monday comes around, and you’re not ready. You’re. You’re not engaged. You start to lose interest and passion. You start to lose engagement and start to check out. So there’s like a whole. I’ve got this whole list of symptoms, and I feel like it’s a progressive thing, too, because I think initially, it starts out like stress, right? So you’re feeling irritable, anxious. Maybe you’ve got some insomnia, maybe there’s some poor concentration. Maybe your tummy’s giving you problems, or you’ve got some headaches or migraines. And then, like, that continues without recovery. 

05:20
And then you start to get that cynicism and detachment, which I think of as, like, the second stage, you know, where you’re going from stress response, which is fairly typical but can be managed. Right, and this can be managed, too, but, like, it starts to go deeper and it hits, you know, you start to feel pessimistic and isolated and detached, and you start to procrastinate and feel resentful. And those things are. I think that’s where most people start to think, well, am I burning out? Is this burn? Am I. What is this? You know, how do I reengage? Do I need to do on a sabbatical? What needs to happen here? And then if it’s not handled, if it’s not dealt with, the next thing that happens is really quite tragic, is that people start to feel hopeless. 

06:01
It starts to affect your performance, and that when it starts to impact your performance is when we start getting that, you know, imposter syndrome, the feelings of inadequacy, feeling overwhelmed, and then ultimately losing confidence. And that. That is tragic. There’s no reason to lose confidence on this path. 

06:21
Yeah. 

06:22
So, yeah, that’s kind of how I think of it is, like, this gradual or maybe not gradual. Sometimes. It’s like hitting a wall. It surprises us. 

06:30
Yeah. Yeah. And I. I agree, you know, I agree that we tend to carry stress and anxiety into our workday day after day, and we never catch up. And then it. Then it drops into one level deeper. And I even, you know, describe it as kind of depression light, as burnout. And it’s no less serious than depression because it rules our emotions, our choices, our relationships, and, you know, it is something that needs to be handled right away. So, Hannah, did you ever go through any of that? I mean, the tech industry is a very stressful industry, especially as you’re a coder. You’ve got deadlines, you’ve got teams, you’ve got people who you like, who you don’t like. It is a stressful environment. Did any of that happen to you? 

07:39
Absolutely. It was actually after I shifted into the design aspect of tech, but there’s high levels of ambiguity and other things going on in the design world. But, yes. So I hit a wall hard, and it was multifaceted because I was also a mother of very young children and babies at home, relatively new marriage. Like, we got married and had babies right away, and then the career stress had been there, but it got to a point where I wasn’t getting out of bed. 

08:11
Oh, no. 

08:12
Unable to get up. And that was frightening. It was so frightening. And I’ve. I’ve burned out before, but I didn’t have babies to take care of. I didn’t have anything on the line, my own happiness. And once it was like, oh, I need to show up. I can’t. I can’t lose my job. I’m a breadwinner. I can’t not take care of my children. I love them. Like, I have to fix this. And it became my number one priority to resolve it, recover, and then make sure it never happened again. And so, yeah, I mean, I went to all the doctors. I went to all the holistic types of doctors as well. I did it all, and nothing was technically wrong with me other than that I was completely fried. 

08:54
And so it was definitely a healing journey, and I learned a lot along the way, and I did turn it around. And I turned it around without quitting my job. And eventually, once I recovered to a certain point, I ended up getting what is essentially my dream job. And so it was really, you know, it was quite an experience. I don’t want to ever do it again, and I don’t want anyone else to have to go through it either. 

09:18
Right now, I’m sure, you know, can you share with us what you did, how long it took, and what I’m also assuming I’m going to hear are ways that you work with women. Although, you know, we both know that everybody’s different. Everybody has a different journey, different story, different goals. So. But I’m curious, what. What did you do for yourself in getting this. This new life for yourself in coaching other women? 

09:53
Right. Well, there’s so many things. And the way I did it, I actually wouldn’t recommend doing it the exact way I did it because it took a couple years, and I was muddling through and guessing and trying things, and it cost a lot of money. I paid a lot of money to a lot of different types of. So, you know, support professionals, and. And it took a while, but, since then, I’ve kind of been, you know, been doing a lot more studying, and I’ve codified it to a point that is flexible enough. Right. That it supports all different ways of going through this. So. And really, like, the first phase or step I think of is, stepping into authentic alignment. 

10:31
And that’s where we get rid of that dissonance, that feeling like we’re being pulled in different directions, where you’re doing something because you feel like you should, or maybe you’re trying to make someone else happy. Maybe you don’t even know why you’re doing it. You’re just doing it. And so we get to the root of, like, what matters to you? What are your values? What is your purpose in life right now? Because maybe what was driving you five years ago is no longer what’s driving you today. And so we peel back the onion and get down to the root of our values, what matters to us today. And then we look at our lives and start kind of mapping against that and seeing what activities, people, places, things are filling our cup, filling us up with energy, and what things are draining us. 

11:20
And then once we have that right, that understanding of who we are, where we want to go, and where we are today, then we can start implementing strategies. This is like that second phase where I think of it as resourcing energy, and that’s where we start, you know, strategically saying, no. So, you know, I don’t recommend, you know, showing up to work and be like, no, I’m not going to do my job today. But there are ways to say no without saying no. So working on those strategies, because a lot of us, I feel like, never learned the skill, never learned how to say no. 

11:56
Sure. 

11:57
Strategically, and once you do learn, you’re like, oh, this isn’t actually quite so scary. And people respect it and honor it, and I’m actually getting what I really want in life, so. Fantastic. So we learn how to honor yes or no. We learn how to ask for what we want and get it and be willing to receive what we want, which is a whole nother thing. And so there’s that resourcing of energy, and then there’s the finding your voice, which I kind of spoke to already a bit about learning how to ask for what you want, building that team, delegating, saying no, effectively getting the things off of your plate that don’t belong there in a way that is going to take you to where you want to go. 

12:37
So that if you’re afraid of, like, well, if I don’t do all the things all the time, my job, and that was a fear I had because I’ve seen if you’re in tech, you’ve seen thousands of people be laid off all the time. Laid offs are everywhere all the time, and it’s scary. And, and I think once I realized, like, I don’t actually have to do five different people’s jobs to not be laid off, like, and let that go, let that fear go. And then I really focus on what I do want. What do I want to bring to the table? How can I bring value here and push for that and sell that, really? And then it’s like, oh, you get support. People will support you in your dreams and, you know, accelerate your path there. So it’s really a power. 

13:19
There’s some very powerful shifts that we can make in our addressing the fears that are driving the behaviors that are driving us to burn out. I think of it as, like, the five success traps where, you know, we have the people pleasing, the perfectionism, the overachieving, the helping. And what was the fifth? There’s another one. But these behaviors that we have that kind of are part of what have driven us to be successful but taken out of balance or if they’re rooted in fear, can drive us to a burnout. Addressing those things, addressing those, the fears behind them and the behavior itself is, like, super critical to getting the outcome that you want. 

14:01
Yeah. And, you know, it is a different path for women. There is no doubt about that in women wanting to do more because they’ve just, that’s been our socialization. Oh, I’ll do it. No problem. People pleasing is a real big challenge. And then that underlying fear of if I don’t, they’re going to fire me, whether it’s real or not or whether that is a place you really want to work at, whether if you don’t do three people’s jobs, you will get fired. That’s something to consider maybe changing out of. But what have you seen, again, that are some of the differences with women and men in the workplace and in your work as a, working with women who are doing too much? 

15:00
Well, men burn out, too. And I definitely do not want to minimize or in any way imply that men don’t burn out, because I do. And I’ve seen it. But what I’ve seen with women is that we are raised differently. A lot of, many of us have been raised in ways where we’re trained to be the helper, where we’re expected to be the caretaker. And many of us at various points in our lives end up being the primary caretaker, whether it’s of our children, of our parents, of a sick relative or all of the above. It does tend to fall more on our shoulders. And so being the person who’s the caretaker is like a role of self sacrifice. And I think that, you know, you see the conversation with mothers as well. Like, you’re expected to sacrifice yourself for the good of others. 

15:46
And there’s nothing terribly wrong with that until it’s taken to an extreme, which it often is, because you can’t serve from. You can’t, you know, pour from an empty cup. You can’t serve others when you’ve got nothing to give. You can’t show up as your best self for your kids, for your family, for your job if you are not taking care of yourself, you know, if you’re not giving yourself the fuel that you need, you’re not going to be able to even fulfill the basic functions in life. And that’s what I think ultimately burnout ends up being is the inability to show up because you’re fine. 

16:22
Yeah. And in the inability to focus and think. And so, you know, again, I’ve just seen many people just not even have that brain power because they are so fried. It’s like all they know is they’re exhausted and they don’t know where to go, which direction, what questions to ask. So going back to something that you had mentioned is saying no. At least somebody can practice saying no. Whether they’re in this depleted place. What is the best way to say no? 

17:07
So there’s, you know, when you look at, you know, these things on your plate that ultimately after, you know, doing that, like, these are what’s draining you. This is what you need to get rid of. There’s different ways to approach it, right? You can delegate it, you can outsource it, you can minimize it or like reduce the amount of that you’re doing. You can say no. You can say no, thank you, I don’t want to do this anymore. This task is not for me. And there’s the way, there’s ways to do that. So if it’s at work and you’re dealing with something that’s coming up, oftentimes there’s a reason we want to say no. Like something’s come up and you’re like, in three days, that’s not going to matter. No one will care. This is a reactive thing. 

17:49
So depending on your situation, you can just let it sit there and see what happens. Sometimes those things just go away. So ignoring is another way of saying no. Use it very carefully. You can also say this or that. Would you like this first or that first priorities, right? And not even so much what’s more important, but like, what’s more important and urgent. Like, you can’t have both at the same time. Another way of doing it is by expressing the cost. Sometimes the people who are asking to do whatever it is have no idea. They genuinely just don’t know what it takes. So by spelling out the cost either to you or to your team or to the impact on other projects that can help them make that this or that decision, because they don’t know the actual cost of what they’re asking for. 

18:46
I think being ready to have those conversations about the true cost of a request, the impact on the big picture, the this or that conversation where you’re prioritizing and help, you’re basically coaching someone else through a prioritization exercise. And so, you know, learning how to have those conversations, along with knowing when to strategically ignore, you know, like there for a couple days and see what happens. Oh, everyone forgot about it. 

19:15
Darn. 

19:16
Right. Along with knowing. I think the most important way to say no, the most effective way to say no, the most powerful way to say no is to have a very clear yes. 

19:27
Okay. 

19:29
So everything you say yes to is a no to something else. So when you put something on your calendar or you don’t say or you don’t delete it, you’re saying yes to that, which means you’re saying no to something else. So that’s why that first exercise of getting in alignment with your values, get understanding what your dream is, understanding what your purpose is, understanding how you want to actually show up and be impactful is so important because you’re getting clear on your. 

19:53
Yes, absolutely. Now what about, I totally get that. I love the, you can have this or that or, you know, it’s going to cost this or I’m not going to be able to finish this for you, which is what you asked for last week or going to run short of the deadline or what are late on the deadline. What about, and this is where I find most people getting in trouble with their yeses or nos or taking on too much is with family members. And that’s not necessarily a husband or children because, yes, those do rank very high in the priority list. 

20:38
But if it’s, you know, an aunt or a mother or something even hugely, like a much bigger thing, like a relative needs caregiving, how would you approach saying no to those difficults, you know, those family ties and having those more difficult conversations? 

21:04
I think that it comes down to once again being very clear about what you’re saying yes to. So let’s say I have a brother who needs care or needs extra support. I also have two children who are very young and a husband who’s struggling through depression. Like, say, that’s your scenario and you’re looking at what’s on your plate. You also work full time and yada, you know, life. 

21:26
Yeah. 

21:26
And you’re looking at what’s on your plate and you’re like, I cannot actually do it all because if I do, I will. There’s going to be no me left. Right. And so even though I want to do all the things for all the people, what are your priorities? And I’m not going to tell you what they should be, but what mine are is my children and husband. My family unit is first. Someone else in the family needs help. They are not first, they are second or third, because actually it’s my family. And my family needs me to have a job. Family and job. If anybody else needs anything, it is after those two rather large commitments. 

22:05
Right. Right. Those are full time job commitments without the full time job. 

22:12
Right. So those are my commitments. Those are my values. And I’m not saying that everyone else needs to have the same values or commitments as I do. But knowing that I need to function at a certain level for these folks and earn at a certain level for these folks, and there’s a certain standard that I want to maintain that’s really important to me in terms of mental health in the household and in terms of me being present and knowing all of that, I can say you’re going to have to get help somewhere else. Like, first of all, I’m not trained to deal with whatever it is or like, am I even the right person for this job? And just because they’re your relative doesn’t need me, the answer is yes. 

22:54
So, yeah, that is a good statement. Just because they’re your relatives, it’s not an automatic yes. That’s great. Yeah. Thank you for answering that. That’s a great way for food for thought. Now, most of us, and again, when we get burned out, we just keep on with the same pattern. Thinking as I’m so tired, but I can’t do anything about it or I’m so burned out, this is just where I’m at. It is a mindset. Would you start in flipping around that kind of mindset for people? 

23:46
I think that getting support is huge. When you’re in a mindset where you feel like you have to keep going, there’s no room for you. Because what’s going on is the problem is so close, right? It’s right on your nose, so you can’t even see it because it’s right there. It’s so close. You’re so enmeshed that getting support outside of yourself, outside of your own head, outside of your own struggles, can really make a huge difference in terms of you being able to speak your truth, someone else hearing it and then validating it and speaking it back to you. 

24:21
Because sometimes we get so enmeshed in our shoulds and so enmeshed in, like, I just have to keep trudging that we don’t even realize that there are opportunities all around us for solutions because we’ve got our blinders on and we’re tired and the problem is too close to us. We’re too enmeshed in it to see it properly. Right. This is why, you know, when you’re doing design, you bring it to other folks to get reviews, to get other perspectives, to learn from others. So the same thing with our lives. Like, I think getting support is huge. And then the second thing is giving yourself permission, I think permission first to fail. You’re allowed to fail. It’s okay. The world will not actually come to an end. 

25:05
It might get sticky for a minute or two, but you’re allowed to let go a little and do the self assessment that you need to figure out. What? Like, if you didn’t, if you don’t know what the answer is right now, what would you say to yourself if you did, like, pretend like, well, you know, you’re stuck in this mire, you’re stuck in this mess. You don’t know where to go. You’re like, I’m stuck. I’m just going to keep going forward. What if you did have the answer? What would it be? And just play with that. You know, lean into that. Because if the wisdom is in you, it really is. We all have our own, like, gut wisdom and truth. 

25:40
It’s just the matter of, I think I said peeling the onion earlier, but, like, pulling off the layers of shoulds and expectations and fears to actually get to that and surface it. 

25:53
That is great. Yeah, I think it also, what I’m hearing is there’s a level of trust in yourself that if I fail, if I don’t have the answer right at this exact time or even the faith saying I will because I have trust in my self, trust in the process, I think that is a great place to begin at least. And then little by little, and that answer comes to you just stepping into that more fully. So that is a great point. Yeah. Now, I’m also curious. You know, we’re all trying as part of this process to lessen our workload each day. That’s the goal. It’s before we step into something bigger or go deeper in our burnout, what would you recommend? 

27:03
How we can just let go or lose some of, or slash, you know, the tasks we have to do and, you know, things that we can let go of again to just make our day easier. 

27:22
Absolutely. I mean, the first question is, does this even need to happen? Like, does this need to be on my schedule? Does this need to be a to do? Is this really required? So challenge it. And then, you know, if the answer is yes, this has to happen, does it have to be you? Can you delegate this? Is there someone else on your team, in your household, in your life that would rather do it or that you could enlist to support you and buy into your dream? And the third, you know, is to minimize. So sometimes when we look at something, we think, I’ve got to do all of these things, like, say, you know, I want to get a wholesome dinner on the table every night, and I wanted to meet certain standards every single night. Right. So, okay, great. 

28:10
That’s a fantastic goal. Do you actually have to make it from scratch every day? Absolutely not. There are so many ways to do that does not involve you even having to cook. So when you look at what you really want, your goal, your objective, like, why is this thing important? Why is it a must have? Look at the objective. Is there a better way to do it? Is there an easier way to do it? You don’t have to do it by yourself. You may not have to do it at all. Like, think about that and then also outsourcing. So can you pay someone else to do this? It has to be done. Does it have to be you? Can you delegate? Can you outsource it? Can you minimize? It can be done in a different way. 

28:51
And then sometimes just kind of test it out. Like, see what happens if you drop the ball. 

28:55
Oh, and just be like, what if. 

28:58
I don’t do that? What will happen if I don’t do that? Just see, just play with that. See how many balls you can drop with. 

29:08
That’s a bold move. 

29:15
Yeah, well, depends on, like, how you’re wired. Like, if you’re wired. Some of us are like high achievers, right? We’re trying to do it all. We’ve, we over fill our schedules. We feel like if we’re not busy, we aren’t worthy. We’re triple booked all day long. So it’s like, yeah, so stepping back from that and be like, well, what if I don’t do that? What if I don’t do that? What’s actually going to happen? And sometimes it had, you know, push against our understanding of reality when we find out, oh, I don’t actually have to do all these things or be in all these things or, you know, take care of all of it. And, yes, you’re still worthy even if you’re not that busy. 

29:48
Yeah, boy. Great. Again, great suggestions. I love the outsourcing. Do you have to do it? Can you have another person prepare the meals? Can you pick up healthy meals on your way back from work? Can your husband do it? You know, can you shift days of the week that a healthy meal will be on the table? So great suggestions in coaching women and men for burnout. With all of that, how do you allow them to just let go and try some of these delegating, minimizing, dropping the ball. What suggestions can our listeners think about as a first step? 

30:43
I think so. It sounds fairly straightforward, right. Going through these exercises, like challenging it and going through the process, what I think might trip people up, though, is as we’re doing it, we might become like our fear might kick in because we’re making a change. And that ties back to those beliefs where you feel like you have to do it all because that’s who you are. You are the person who does it all. And so when you are no longer the person who does it all, who are you? So I think the thing that could most likely trip you up is going to be that identity shift or those beliefs about yourself and your place in this world when you stop being the one that does everything. Who are you? How are you being in this world? Where is your value? 

31:32
And those are the things that have come up with. The clients that I work with is like, well, first of all, they feel like they need permission, so just go ahead and take it as I’m giving you permission. You have permission. They feel like they need permission to let go. And then some of them, depending on how they’re wired like I am. Then they have a point where they’re start to struggle with identity. And, well, if I’m not superwoman, who am I? You know? And then we dig into that and kind of get clear on who they are outside of being everything for everyone. So those are the walls that people tend to hit, is those fears come up because you’re making changes. 

32:18
You start to wonder who you are or where your value is within your world as you start to let things go. 

32:29
Excellent. Boy, that sounds good. I would agree with you. It is who we are. And where will we get our love and acceptance if we’re not the superwoman, if we’re not doing everything? Is that okay? Somebody accept you for who you are in this moment and for who you will be in next week, next year, etcetera. And that’s one of the things I see people struggling with if they are not, you know, taking care of everyone. And again, that ties in our socialization, helping everyone and just being the good guy, the people pleaser. Well, this is such great stuff and stuff everyone needs to hear. And, Hannah, how can people get in touch with you if they want more information, right? 

33:35
So I’ve got a little gift, and you can find it@serenesuccess.net. Pod pod as in, like, podcast. And essentially, it’s a cheat sheet where, you know, we have the seven principles for how to slash your hours without damaging your reputation. And it goes into those, you know, seven principles and, you know, examples of how to go about cutting back, taking a step back in a way that does not do harm to your reputation or your life. And so that is an easy way to, you know, kind of get, like, a little bit more on what we just talked about. And also you’ll be able to reach me from there. So, yeah, so that’s serene success.net slash pod and it’s a nice little cheat sheet. 

34:25
That’s great. And serene is serene success.net podcast. That’s great and very generous of you to put that together and offer that. And also very generous of your time to share your experiences and solutions with our listeners. So I want to thank you so much for that. 

34:53
Well, thank you so much for having me on. It was a pleasure and very honored. Thank you. 

34:58
Great. All right, you take care, Hannah. Okay. 

35:02
All right. Thank you. 

35:03
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